Displaying the 10 Commandments

The Adventist Review online newsletter (AR In Touch) reports on a decision by an American court that the display of the Ten Commandments is constitutional.  It's not something I've followed much - it's really just a bunch of silly people trying to inflict a revisionist "history" on the reasonable American.

The article, interestingly, mentions the concept of a "reasonable person" - to my surprise.  My gut feeling about this issue is that the decisions being made on things like this do not take the "reasonable person" into account at all - the courts just do what seems to be a nice thing at the time.  Some snippets from Judge Suhrheinrich:

“A reasonable observer would not view this display as an attempt by Mercer County to establish religion. Instead, he would view it for what it is: an acknowledgment of history.�

“If the reasonable observer perceived all government references to the Deity as endorsements, then many of our nation’s cherished traditions would be unconstitutional, including the Declaration of Independence and the national motto [“In God we trust�].�

The ACLU "does not embody the reasonable person," [Judge Richard Suhrheinrich] said.

The main article is at the Baptist Press website; also reported via the Adventist Rewiew website.


The biblical basis for relics

Karl Keating's website, Catholic Answers, has a good article on relics and why they are not some sort of mystical nonsense invented by Catholics or adopted from pagans.  Quite biblical in fact.  This refers back to a recent post commenting on Bacchiocchi's latest newsletter.


Father Claus

The German-born Pope delighted the crowds at his weekly audience by wearing a red velvet cap trimmed with white fur along with his scarlet cape as he drove around the square.

So says the Telegraph of Pope Benedict XVI who put on a Father Christmas / Santa Claus-like hat on a tour around St Peter's Square.

Cute!


Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas!


Worshipping Ellen White

In his latest Endtime Issues (#141,) Samuele Bacchiocchi again [1] criticises the papal stand on moral issues, and the commitment of Catholics to the support of Catholic moral teaching.  It looks like moral strength is a sign of the end-time evil power.  Or so many Adventists would have us believe.

He also interprets HH Pope Benedict XVI's promotion of Sunday in a sinister way - whereas in reality, the pope is merely promoting better devotion to God in a way that Bacchiocchi does not like.  Bacchiocchi has a history of such peculiar interpretations. [1] [2]

Bacchiocchi says of the ecumenical progress:

For example, Bishop Eero Huovinen of the Finnish Lutheran Church, told the Eucharistic Congress: "We Finnish Lutheran wish to be part of the Catholic Church." He expressed agreement with the theme of the congress by affirming that "Lutheran cannot live without the sacrament of the Eucharist."  He closed saying:  "From the bottom of my heart, I would like to anticipate the day in which Lutherans and Catholics, together, unite in a visible way."

Bishop Huovinen's statement is significant for two reasons. First, it shows that the Catholic promotion of Sunday as the day of the eucharistic celebration, serves as a rallying point for Christian unity under the leadership of the Catholic Church. Second, it reveals that the historical doctrinal differences that have divided Protestantism and Catholicism are largely ignored. Part of this development is due to the historic Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, which is an important agreement between Lutherans and Roman Catholics.

Once again, Bacchiocchi demonstrates his ignorance on this matter.  As I've pointed out before, he doesn't realise that the Finnish Lutherans have not changed their position on the Eucharist (or Sunday observance) due to interaction with Catholicism.  The Finnish Lutherans have always been much closer to Catholicism in doctrine and practice regarding both the Eucharist and Apostolic Succession than mainstream Lutherans.  Mainstream Lutherans in fact do not believe in Apostolic Succession, whereas the Finnish Lutherans do.  It should be made clear that this bishop's statement reflects centuries of belief amongst Finnish Lutherans, and not a movement away from historical protests.

Ecumenism is about understanding each other instead of doing what is popular in many Adventist circles - feeding people incorrect information in order to promote disunity.

Creating a climate of respect and mutual acceptance is slowly, but surely, working.  The Adventist camp that promotes their traditional propaganda has decreased, and many now see Ellen White and her writings as flawed, affected by the anti-Catholic climate of their day, and no longer the absolute authority the more traditional Adventists of the past have seen them as.  The anti-Catholic propaganda has dwindled - because Adventists are starting to learn the truth about Catholicism.  The days where they blindly accepted their pastors' claims that "Catholics worship Mary" and "the Pope claims to be God" and "the Pope changed the Sabbath to Sunday" are becoming history.  When Adventists find out what Catholicism really believes, and leave the propaganda behind them, they can't but accept us Catholics as fellow Christians.  Bacchiocchi, in a way, whether wittingly or not, has helped this process.  Which is why the more conspiracy theorist part of the pro-division faction in Adventism sometimes label him as a Jesuit infiltrator.

Bacchiocchi bewails the fact that Protestants consider Catholics to be Christians.  Lately the question of whether to re-classify Adventism as a cult instead of a Christian denomination has been asked more and more often in Evangelical Protestant circles.  Is he just trying to put Catholicism in the same boat?

Worship through Mary, saints, objects, shrines, icons, crucifixes, or statues, is condemned by the Scripture as idolatry.

Maybe it is condemned in the Clear Word Bible, but not in the real thing.  Worship of false gods, yes.  Worship of false gods in the form of idols, yes.  The use of physical means for worship - no.  The Bible is full of evidence for shrines, sacramentals, statues permitted by God, and grace coming through physical objects.  Yes, even the New Testament contains this.  [1] [2] [3] Bacchiocchi is willing to make sweeping - and inaccurate - statements about what the Bible says in one place, without bothering to put real Catholic teaching and the Bible's complete witness side by side and compare them.

Bacchiocchi's problem with the Catholic way of experiencing the divine is not really what he says it is - after all, his own denomination does the same thing in other ways - the Sabbath, diet laws, Ellen White's writings.  And at an Adventist service I attended, the congregation knelt in reverence when the Bible was raised for them to see before it was read.  Were they worshipping the Bible?  Were they allowing a visual, physical form of worship to distract them from the real worship of God?  Or is this a valid form of respect that can be paid to the Bible, and thereby instill respect for it in the hearts of those who believe it?

Bacchiocchi's real problem with the Catholic way of experiencing the divine is simply becaused it is Catholic.  He doesn't spend his time attacking similar things in other denominations, or in his own.  Nor does he spend his time attacking similar things seen in the Bible - whereas, if he wants to be consistent, he should be doing just that.

His section title to this section is "Revival of Marian Worship."  He should really know better than to use terms like that - but it serves his purpose, which is to instill disapproval of Catholicism.  As I said before, ecumenism is about understanding, not about misinformation.  This, from Bacchiocchi, is about misinformation.

Catholics do not worship Mary.  To claim they do is as ridiculous as claiming that Adventists worship the Sabbath or Ellen White.

Yet, in a sense, they do.  The term "worship" is not restricted to the adoration due to God alone.  In many places in the world, judges and magistrates are called, "Your worship."  Lovers are said to worship each other, or to worship the ground walked on by the ones they love.  In some contexts, the word "worship" refers to giving honour or respect.  This is perfectly acceptable in contexts outside of the adoration of God.  The Bible itself contains many such examples - applying to humans, as well as sacred objects.  Those who hold the anti-Catholic position either have not read these passages in the Bible, or simply dissociate them from the issue of Catholicism, and never make the logical connection between the two practices.

The problem is that, in our current language usage, the term "worship" has become a lot more restrictive, especially in a religious context.  When people today see the term "worship," they associate it solely with the adoration due to God alone.  And this is exactly why Bacchiocchi's use of the word is misleading.  Many Adventists believe that Catholics do indeed worship Mary in the way we worship God.  Bacchiocchi is playing to that misunderstanding.

Adventists, on the other hand, do give reverence to the Bible, to Ellen White, and to the Sabbath.  They can therefore be said to be worshipping these things.  But it needs to be pointed out that, in this context, the term "worship" is not being used in the strict modern Christian interpretation of the word.  What Adventists really engage in is a form of respect - not adoration of the divine.  That they reserve for God alone.  And the same is true of Catholics.

The Catholic "worship" of Mary and the saints, etc., is simply what the Bible shows is a legitimate form of honour.  It is not the same as our worship of God.  Just as in the Bible the externals may have resembled that worship of God, so today Adventists may see similarities - but they do not see what is in the hearts of Catholics, and, not understanding how Catholics experience their faith, assume they are the same type of worship.  The vast majority of Catholics, understanding that experience, can easily differentiate between the two, and know what they are worshipping and what they are merely paying respect to.

Those Catholics who don't understand this can end up somewhat horrified by what they are doing, not realising that their actions are condemned by Catholic teaching, and assume that the idolatry they were guilty of is also what is going on in the hearts of other Catholics ... and so they loudly proclaim that Catholics worship Mary, without really having understood what is really taught.  They end up in the same group as those who never manage to make the logical connection between Catholic practice and the biblical passages showing honour to non-divine entities.

So, just as Catholics give a biblically permissable form of respect to Mary, the saints, etc., so Adventists do the same with their traditional icons.  Does this mean that Adventists are engaging in idolatrous worship?  No.  It just means that, like Catholics, their hearts can and do know where the line between God and God-given is drawn.  It is through understanding of each other that prejudices (pre-judgements) like this are dissolved.  Bacchiocchi does not seem to have mutual understanding on his agenda.  In many ways, such as refuting Ellen White on the origins of Sunday observance, he has contributed to moving Adventism away from its roots and towards a more fact-based outlook on history - but, in this newsletter, he does not seem to have this in mind.


Adventist Christmas

Sadly, some Adventists do not celebrate Christmas.  They associate it with Catholicism, and therefore consider it to be a corrupt expression of our Christian faith.

Unfortunately, this sentiment is perpetuated by prominent Adventists such as Samuele Bacchiocchi, who preaches the myth about Christmas being pagan in one of his old Endtime Issues.

One idea that he promotes is that the name comes from the English word "Mass," used in the context of the Catholic celebration of the Eucharist, a very biblical event.

Bacchiocchi doesn't seem to know that Christ-mass simply means "the sending of Christ" - mitto, mittere, misi, misum - Latin for "send."  The same word is used at the end of the Mass - "Ite, missa est."  It is from this that the English word "Mass" is derived.

When people like Bacchiocchi reject Christmas because they think it refers to "the Mass of Christ," they don't realise that it's the "sending" of Christ they are rejecting, not the celebration of the Eucharist.  That is what the word "mass" means - to be sent.  Just because Christmas (and the calendar, the cross, the Trinity, baptism, etc.) have pagan associations, doesn't mean they need to be rejected.  Ellen White celebrated Christmas, Santa Claus and all.

The articles at Wikipedia and Truth or Fables show that the origin of Christmas had a real Christian intent - not merely, as claimed, a case of adopting a pagan custom - and that the date of 25 December is indeed a Christian concept, and not at all unlikely.

I wish all Adventists and non-Adventists a very blessed Christmas this 25 December - the sending of Our Lord - as they celebrate the Incarnation.


Adventist desperation on Usenet

You get all sorts on Usenet, and first I should acknowledge that Andrew is not a good representative of Adventism.  Most Adventists do not deliberately tell lies about other Christian beliefs, although many do believe misinformation given to them.

I do, however, get occasional e-mails from people like Andrew, who go out of their way to attack Catholicism without scruples whatsoever.

Andrew continuously claims that the Catholic Church teaches that they changed the Sabbath, yet when given evidence from official Catholic documents to show that, when this is said, it means the Apostles, he refuses to accept that this is what Catholics believe.  Catholics believe that the Apostles were the first leaders of the original Catholic Church, so logically, what they did can, in Catholic thought, equate the two.

He, along with a few others on alt.religion.christian.adventist, ignore the context, and continue to claim Catholicism teaches something it does not teach at all, in spite of the evidence presented to show what we really believe.

More recently, he claimed that Catholics worship Mary in the way we worship God.

Anyone who knows what the Catholic Church teaches will know that this is not at all true.  In older English, the term "worship" means a whole range of things, from the adoration due to God alone, through to the honour given to a leader.  Judges, in places, are addressed as "Your Worship."  It is also commonly used, even today, in the context of a romantic relationship.  Yet in these cases, it is not meant to say that we honour these people in the same way we honour God.  In more modern English, the word isn't often used that way, and today we use terms like "honour" or "respect."

While they may still disagree with the idea of asking saints to intercede for us, honest Protestants who have this explained to them accept that we do not honour Mary and the saints the way we honour God.

Yet some - and Andrew is the example here - ignore the evidence and continue to accuse Catholicism of teaching worship of Mary in a way that, in reality, Catholicism does not teach.

And he still has the audacity to quote to me the following:

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
Exodus 20:16

(The context of that was a tangent I went on, pretending that Elaine "Doc" Watson was involved in snake handling ... to show her how silly it is to make claims about Catholicism that are not true.)

Somewhat hypocritical, wouldn't you say, to quote the 10 commandments to me, when he has no qualms about repeatedly breaking this commandment himself when it comes to his treatment of Catholicism?

Andrew quoted the following from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"It will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint."

"duke" responded to show that Andrew was selectively quoting this article, which also says:

  • if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
  • When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship

Later Andrew wrote:

So you acknowledge that in Catholicism relics are indeed worshiped, but it is
a different kind of worship that is done when you worship Mary or the saints.

Would that be correct?

"duke" responded:

Nope, relics and Mary and the saints are different than worshipping God.  Didn't you notice that?  You would have if you had been honest enough to show the whole statement.

And I responded:

Yes, it would be correct.  Worship can mean honour that is rightly given to
humans or creation, or it can mean a higher worship - that due to God alone.
You call the latter worship, you don't call the former worship.  The
dictionary accepts both definitions.  That is where your confusion lies.

My question now is - are you going to accept the different uses Catholics
apply to the word, or are you going to use this to confirm that we worship
statues etc., and apply that to your own definition of the word?

Having witnessed Andrew's methodology for several years, I suspected this was a trap.

I followed up "duke" with:

I, and I think you, have enough experience with Andrew to know that he's not
going to accept this as, "Okay, now I see, you use the word differently in
each case, and you don't worship Mary the way you worship God."

He's going to turn it around and claim that we admit we worship Mary.

And he did exactly that.

"Stephen Korsman" wrote in message news:YMSdnXvY48ZzIQzenZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@is.co.za...

>
>                     .. we admit we worship Mary.
>

This you call *hyperdulia* worship, which you say is opposed to the
actual worship of God which you call *latria* ....as we are told in the
Catholic Encyclopedia:

   "As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent
    rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia"

-- Catholic Encyclopedia  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

But if we follow the Lord Jesus..then we will, "worship the Lord our
God, and Him ONLY."

Jesus said:
 "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him ONLY"
                                                                                     Matthew 4:10

"You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him ONLY you shall
 serve."                                                                          Luke 4:8

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with  ALL  thy heart, and with 
 ALL  thy soul, and with  ALL  thy mind, and with  ALL  thy strength:
 this is the first commandment.                                        Mark 12:30

Jesus is calling us to latria ONLY.  For those who follow Him, there is
no time for dulia or hyperdulia - it is forbidden.

Andrew

Nowhere is it forbidden.  In fact, the Bible gives examples of such honour given to humans, without reprimand.  When it comes in the form of honour due to God alone, there is reprimand, but when it doesn't, there is none.

I predicted Andrew's response quite accurately.  His agenda is not about discussing Catholicism fairly and honestly.  It is simply to attack Catholicism by whatever means necessary, ignoring whether or not it is true.

Samuele Bacchiocchi calls Adventists who deliberately lie about Catholicism, "zealous."  He calls Catholics who lie, "unscrupulous."

I have come across a lot of Adventists like Andrew - but they are, thank goodness, not the majority.  A religion based on so much hate could not survive - Adventism as a whole, although based largely on misinformation about Catholicism, does not deliberately tell lies.

People like Andrew spend their time so grossly and dishonestly misrepresenting Catholicism, that the end result is that they misrepresent their own denomination by giving the false impression that Adventists are unscrupulous, and will stoop to incredible depths to attack other faiths.  Ultimately, this only serves to benefit Catholicism - the only people who remain to take his side are equally unscrupulous characters, leaving the rest disgusted, and with a better understanding of what Catholicism really believes and practices.


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